The Chevy Volt, automotive and economic folly / FAO Toasted

[JPB]

I don't want to shit in another man's new car thread, so here's your answer to why I have bottomless spite for the Chevy Volt

Yup. Just like I took advantage of first time home buyer perks when I bought my first house.

You are looking at the same thing a different way. All the discounts and trade in value in total was still more than it probably would be normally. Why nit pick it?

I don't hate the Volt because it's not cool enough, or something... i'd hate it just as much if it were the Nissan GTR or the Viper, and for the same reasons.
I can't stand the idea of everyone else on the forum being on the hook for your car and your house. OP is free to do what he likes, it just doesn't sit right with me, and it gets my dander up whenever I see one.

The Volt is just like the light rail: some legislator's toy train set. We (and I mean you and me and our kids) are being put into debt in order to fund things like this, and there's no way to account for it. It's pure vanity. So, since you asked, i have an ethical problem with it.

I hereby claim your Grumpy Gus title, sir. [/curmudgeon]

[flippinvw]

And let me guess, you hated NASA as well? Even though there were countless technological developments as part of that program that eventually trickled down into our daily lives?

Don't get me wrong, I don't have much love for the Chevy Volt, but I do think that cars like the Volt, Prius, etc. are helping to 'move us along' and wean us off of our dependence on oil (foriegn or domestic). Government funding used to advance techology, in many (not all) cases, may be putting our kids in debt, but it may also have positive affects on our children's lives as well. Time will tell.

[Casper]

Link

[Digital K]

And let me guess, you hated NASA as well? Even though there were countless technological developments as part of that program that eventually trickled down into our daily lives?

Don't get me wrong, I don't have much love for the Chevy Volt, but I do think that cars like the Volt, Prius, etc. are helping to 'move us along' and wean us off of our dependence on oil (foriegn or domestic). Government funding used to advance techology, in many (not all) cases, may be putting our kids in debt, but it may also have positive affects on our children's lives as well. Time will tell.

I think the difference between nasa, and projects like the volt is that the volt seems to attempt to be "under the table" with its subsidies and development. Everyone knows what nasa is.

[toasted]

Why get so upset about the only the Volt then?

The government wastes money on EVERYTHING!

I paid for half of my student loans ($20,000) with random federal grants that are just laying around out there unused. If you can show you qualify, even only slightly, you can win the money. I looked, and looked, and applied, and won $20k that I don't have to pay back at all. This money is out there every year and just gets spent on something else if nobody claims it. And I only got my hands on a tiny fraction of it.

So don't bitch about the Volt because it's got some government assistance, at least Chevy is trying. One of these days the technology to make a Volt will be cheap enough that the government won't have to help.

[oneunder]

This thread exists?

[toasted]

I guess.

[JPB]

OP, you must be mistaking my distaste for subsidized consumer goods with some sort of anti-science bias. That kind of rhetoric is pretty heavy handed.. NASA is something that is not possible without a government. Building a passenger car is not.

Just like the military, the interstate highway system, power grids... Comparing a privately-owned car with a science institution is strange. not sure what you're looking for.

"helping move us along" is not a role of government, and is a one-size-fits-all excuse for doing about anything you like.

Why get so upset about the only the Volt then?
The government wastes money on EVERYTHING!
...
So don't bitch about the Volt because it's got some government assistance, at least Chevy is trying. One of these days the technology to make a Volt will be cheap enough that the government won't have to help.

We've only discussed the Volt today, so that's all this thread pertains to.
"government waste" is a broader topic, and since it's not a car, and nobody here, today, has advocated for each and every one of its benefits, it's not new thread worthy.

"at least Chevy is trying" ?
Well, shit, how many companies want to develop some cold fusion? Let's go take your neighbor's savings in the name of "it's good for you" and "we're just speeding up the process"


NECESSITY is the mother of invention.
A social agenda is not the mother of invention.


Bullshit gadget cars like this are not practical and not feasible right now. Just like wind power. It's a trend that expends more energy than it saves. It is a gimmick that every American is being squeezed dry for, and no amount of theory (peer-reviewed or otherwise) and scare tactic hyperbole can justify.

Legitimize it any way you like. It is wrong.

[flippinvw]

I think the difference between nasa, and projects like the volt is that the volt seems to attempt to be "under the table" with its subsidies and development. Everyone knows what nasa is.

I disagree. I don't think GM is trying to hide anything. They are building a product that people want to buy. The government is making it more affordable, so more people can buy it, which gives GM (and other companies) incentive to continue development even further. Without incentives (or mpg requirements), car companies have no reason to spend millions of dollars developing this technology.

And if GM is trying to hide something, so is every company that develops solar panels.

Honestly, I can't understand how people can complain about gas prices one moment, and then complain about government tax breaks and subsidies given to companies that make cars like the Volt. What else is going to motivate companies like GM to build these high-tech, high-investment cars? Who is going to spend $50-$60k (or more) on a Volt? Who would you rather give your money to, companies that invest on new technology like this or to Exxon-Mobil? Because it's going to be spent, whether you like it or not. Left to us, it will all go to the gas companies.

[Sven7]

ALL these 2011 vehicles were eligible for substantial tax credits up to $3400 according to the Dept. of Energy:

Escalade Hybrid
Tahoe Hybrid
Seirra Hybrid
Yukon Hybrid
Escape, Mariner, Tribute Hybrid
Fusion and Milan Hybrid
Durango and Chrysler Aspen Hybrid
BMW 750i Hybrid
BMW X6 Hybrid
Civic Hybrid (Civic CNG-$4000)
M-B ML540 Hybrid
Cayenne S Hybrid

M-B E diesel
M-B GL diesel
M-B ML diesel
M-B R diesel
M-B E diesel
VW Golf TDI
VW Jetta TDI
VW Touareg TDI
Audi A3 TDI
Audi Q7 TDI
BMW E90 diesel
BMW X5 diesel

Also included are previous model years of the hybrid models back to 2005, with varying credit amounts. Credits are phased out after 60,000 examples have been produced. Honda Insight Mk1s were available with tax credits for four years.

Sure, the tax credit is twice as much on a Volt and Leaf (which are $7500), but there are many times as many of the above cars made that anyone who's pissed at the Volt should be pissed at all hybrids, diesels, TDI's and the Leaf as well.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_hybrid.shtml
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxLeanburn.shtml
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxphevb.shtml

[flippinvw]

NECESSITY is the mother of invention.
A social agenda is not the mother of invention.

So when exactly are we going to NEED more fuel-efficient cars? When gas prices are $10/gal? $20/gal? When we "run out"? You do realize that this type of technology cannot be developed overnight..

[toasted]

ALL these 2011 vehicles were eligible for substantial tax credits up to $3400 according to the Dept. of Energy:

Escalade Hybrid
Tahoe Hybrid
Seirra Hybrid
Yukon Hybrid
Escape, Mariner, Tribute Hybrid
Fusion and Milan Hybrid
Durango and Chrysler Aspen Hybrid
BMW 750i Hybrid
BMW X6 Hybrid
Civic Hybrid (Civic CNG-$4000)
M-B ML540 Hybrid
Cayenne S Hybrid

M-B E diesel
M-B GL diesel
M-B ML diesel
M-B R diesel
M-B E diesel
VW Golf TDI
VW Jetta TDI
VW Touareg TDI
Audi A3 TDI
Audi Q7 TDI
BMW E90 diesel
BMW X5 diesel

Also included are previous model years of the hybrid models back to 2005. (After 60,000 produced the credits fall off.)

Sure, the tax credit is twice as much on a Volt and Leaf (which are $7500), but there are many times as many of the above cars made that anyone who's pissed at the Volt should be pissed at all hybrids, diesels, TDI's and the Leaf as well.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_hybrid.shtml
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxLeanburn.shtml
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxphevb.shtml

Exactly.

You can't sit here and focus on the Volt like it's a unique or excessive government money waster. There are numerous things the government is wasting money on that they shouldn't be.

[gtiguy1994]

M-B E diesel
M-B GL diesel
M-B ML diesel
M-B R diesel
M-B E diesel
VW Golf TDI
VW Jetta TDI
VW Touareg TDI
Audi A3 TDI
Audi Q7 TDI
BMW E90 diesel
BMW X5 diesel

Diesel technology is where car manufacturers should be in investing their money into.
(and I should invest in engrish class)

[Sven7]

Diesel technology is where car manufacturers should be in investing their money into.
(and I should invest in engrish class)

If the government were to give $7500 tax breaks on new Golf TDI's do you think anyone here would be bitching? NO. They'd be out buying Golf TDI's.

Since everyone thinks the Volt is a glorified hybrid, they like to complain that its buyers get tax breaks.

[Topher]

Let's also not forget that corn is subsidized as are fossil fuels. We are all receiving some sort of product of government subsidy. Be it in the food we eat. The car we drive. The public services we receive.

Fossil-fuel consumers worldwide received about six times more government subsidies than were given to the renewable-energy industry, according to the chief adviser to oil-importing nations.
State spending to cut retail prices of gasoline, coal and natural gas rose 36 percent to $409 billion as global energy costs increased, the Paris-based International Energy Agency said today in its World Energy Outlook. Aid for biofuels, wind power and solar energy, rose 10 percent to $66 billion.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...nergy-iea.html