Need Old Diesel help!

[audi90sportQ]

Just picked up an 81' Caddy...1.5D .. cherry

But owner said he was drivin' er down the highway and it quit...buncha white smoke..parked it..says it cranks over well.. so low compression. There is no coolant in the res.

He suspects head gasket as do I! What is your input?

And if it is the head gasket, does anyone know of a good DIY? Or could type a quick one, as he couldn't find the trucks repair manual! :wub:

[hamradio]

where are you located?

I could swing by and give you a hand with it, if you'd like.

[audi90sportQ]

Im down in mankato. You exactly the guy I need help from! The gurrruuuu lol

I def. need help with this.

[Digital K]

these really aren't that hard to work on. If I were you, I'd get a manual and dive into it. the hardest part is getting the timing correct once its back together. if you want to start learning mechanical skills, that engine is a good place to start. do you have basic hand tools?

since you are far away, we can try to help via the forum, and photos if you go after it.

[audi90sportQ]

I can easily rip it apart! I just don't know where to start first...from the 3 seconds of looking under the hood, this is my first VW with the original timing belt cover..that looks like you have to remove just about everything to get that off!

But then couldn't you in theory zip tie the timing belt to the I.P, Crank, and Cam gears, release the tension on the belt and remove the cam gear from the head. Then just put it back together, pretty impossible to screw the timing up then maybe?

[hamradio]

But then couldn't you in theory zip tie the timing belt to the I.P, Crank, and Cam gears, release the tension on the belt and remove the cam gear from the head. Then just put it back together, pretty impossible to screw the timing up then maybe?

That will not work, because the cam gear is not keyed.

buy the bentley manual for the car. should be ~$40. that will outline the proper procedure for timing belt and head removal. you can get away with using a deep socket (something around 11mm) for the injection pump lock pin, and a piece of flat steel for the cam bar.

[audi90sportQ]

Hmm ok, still wouldnt mind some help!

[hamradio]

if I had my bentley with me here in st. paul, I'd scan the tbelt/head removal pages for you. lemme see if I can scrounge something up.

[audi90sportQ]

My man!! :wub:

I want to get the head off ASAP so I know which gasket to buy!

[Digital K]

the gasket should have holes on it that you can see from looking at it. this should designate what gasket to buy.

[hamradio]

You should be able to see how many notches the gasket has, from the front, with the head on.

[audi90sportQ]

Sounds good. Going to clean her up tomm. take some interior bits out..needs cleaned bad..and needs a floor patch on the driver side.

Probably tear the motor down a bit, hopefully I can snag those pages HAM!

[Digital K]

would really be good to grab a bentley manual either way.

[audi90sportQ]

Ok I got the interior out today carpet and all. Shits musty and moldy, floors look solid except one easy patch on the driver side.

This whole head gasket notch thing is tiking me off, I still don't know what I need?? I just want to order the head gasket kit off BFI, but it says for all 1.5,1.6,1.7 8v. Bblaahh

[sprstu]

Diesel head gaskets are not the same as gas head gaskets.

On the Diesle HG there is a little tab thst sticks out the front, just by the water neck in the center. On this tab you will see some nothces, or dimples, or dots (It depends on who made the gasket). These marks represent thickness, 1 2 or 3. 3 is the thickest. The thickness is important for valve and piston clearance. If you are 100% unsure of what to buy get a 3 notch.

Why do you think the Head gasket is the issue? Usually its the injector pump that needs a new seal or two. A bad seal will cause a running engine to sputter to a stop for seemingly no reason. A bad head Gasket would not.

if you are unfamiliar with the procedure for replacing a diesel Timing Belt then you should not be undertaking this head gasket switch until you have read up. There is almost 0 room for error here. You will be more frustrated by your non-running engine or you will ruin the head if you do not follow the timing precisely as it says. Its not hard, it is however very important to do it correctly.

Vincewaldon.com has the best walk-through on the timing, you wont find one with better pictures or better explanation.

[hamradio]

Also, are you sure it's a 1.5l? Didn't all '81s have a 1.6l with 11mm head bolts?

[audi90sportQ]

Grinded out some more rust today, need to get some sheet metal to start welding in!

And I know I have to read up on it, but I'm an Automotive Engineering student, so I understand that timing is important.

If you set the motor to TDC through the tranny hole, and put the cam with the #1 lobes straight up then it should be fine.. but im going to paint mark the belt on all of the pullies just to double check.

And Im leaning toward the headgasket because PO said he was cruising down the highway, and poof mess of white smoke truck throttle down and stopped, says it cranks over easy, and also there is no coolant...sooo head gasket?

[audi90sportQ]

UPDATE:

So I was bored and threw a battery in it, cranked on er for a while to no avail. Put a charger on the battery and came back out, and SHE FIRED UP!

Ran chunky until it was decently warm, but once hot it would shut off and run perfect. I filled it up with coolant/water and everything was working fine, no smoke, temp stayed good. Then I burped the system and the heat stopped working and the temps got hot. So I gave up for tonight!

I'm straying away from a head gasket?! You would think it would burn up that coolant? Or oil? Or both!? But no, the oil looks fine with no mixing, and same for the coolant..

[fatmobile]

Usually a restricted fuel supply is what stops them in their tracks.
Look for air bubbles in the fuel going into the pump,.. get clear fuel line if you can't see through yours.

[sprstu]

Engine and head timing are half of it. Pump timing is the second half. Not only does the pump pulley rotate but whole pump body moves towards the front and rear, this is the mroe crucial step. You could get everything to TDC and hope the pump doesnt come out of time, but you can never been sure.

Head Gasket would be one of the last things I would mess with. Air in the fuel line or air getting into the pump are more likely causes of a good running engine to just sputter to a stop.

Glad it fired up for you. Good thing to do is get a new Thermostat, that should help with your cooling issue.

[audi90sportQ]

I did a little more research, and I filled my coolant through the expansion res. Which I guess is a no no! Supposed to fill through the upper rad hose? Cause it is acting like an air bubble, getting inconsistent heat through the vent.

It is still a bit of a bear to start cold, the "choke" Or pump advance pull isnt working so I advanced it manually and it sputtered up, smokes like a siv for a few minutes then she is butter.

Couple new questions:

Where and what kind of glow plugs should I get, im sure mine are fried.. and where is that relay located? Would like to replace them.

Fuel filter, pretty straight forward? Any info on this? I know its right in the bay, but not sure on bleeding procedure if need be.

Thermostat, heard there should be a 1/16" hole drilled in it?

Any other things I should jump on replacing?!

[hamradio]

Filling through the upper rad hose sounds like far more work than it's worth, and would introduce even more air to the system. Fill through the expansion tank.

[audi90sportQ]

Ok so im pretty sure the headgasket is fine. I poked around with a DVOM and found the glow plugs are not receiving power, so i jumped them, manually pulled the pump advance..and boom, fired first crank, sure a little smoke for a minute or two, but smooths right out.

But, it takes about 10 minutes of idling for the truck to get up to temp, then it will just slowly keep climbing.

I read online that the little hose running from the top of the radiator to the expansion tank should be flowing coolant into the tank at all times....well mine isnt flowing at all...

Which means there is no coolant flow....which means either thermostat or water pump??

[fatmobile]

No, it probably just means a restriction in the port coming off the radiator.
Plastic radiator?: stick a 1/8" drill bit in the port to clear it out. no drill just a bit on some vice grips or pliers.
Get that flowing for sure, with the small line running to the resevoir the system belches itself, you should never need to fill the upper hose.

The fuel system should prime itself after a filter change.
Sticking a piece of clear tubing to the output of the filter and sucking on it will prime the filter and give you an idea of how hard fuel is pulling from the tank. Swap the clear line going to the pump back onto the filter output and it should prime itself.
It would probably start, run and prime itself just on the fuel in the pump but you might save the starter some work by filling the filter.
Catch the NAPA filter sale and grab a couple NAPA gold filters.

Glow plugs?? duraterm 80010
go to http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=23
there a sticky on that fora suggesting ways to upgrade your glow plugs.

Don't drill a hole in the thermostat.

Mention the color of the smoke when describing problems.

[audi90sportQ]

I really really appreciate the response!

Anyway, cold start the smoke is grey-ish, smells of diesel, not sweet at all.

Flushed the radiator, but I did not try clearing out that plastic nipple, ill do that now.

I did however remove the thermostat, and still getting no flow through the small hose running to the res.

Drove it around, and it held off heat pretty good, took a while to move the needle ( probably cause no thermostat ) , had the heater full blast though, but eventually it did creep up past the halfway mark.

Anymore input

[fatmobile]

Unplug that port and the temps will probably be fine,.. with a thermostat.
You need coolant flowing through that little line, into the resevoir or air can get trapped in the head.

[audi90sportQ]

Unplugged that line, and presto we got coolant flow!! Stays cool and all, BUT!!! The upper rad hose gets really stiff, I.E alot of coolant pressure! So either that hose is bad or my HG is toast.

So I plan on just doing the head gasket and stop posting dumb questions. I just have one favor to ask... Does anyone have a cam lock ( not really needed ) or the pump timing gauge setup I could borrow?! I plan on ordering the gasket and new bolts this week, so probably wont tear into it until a week or so! Let me know! I have $$ too if need be!

[hamradio]

shouldn't need new bolts for that engine if they are of the allen head variety and not triple square, although I would buy ARP head studs for it (same as a 1.8/2.0l gas engine).

can use a piece of close fitting flat metal (I filed down some flat stock) and some feeler gauges for the cam lock bar.

[audi90sportQ]

Ya that was my plan with the flat stock. My main problem is the pump timing, which shouldn't move if you use the 11mm deep well to lock the gear, and dont loosen up the pump mounting bolts??

[fatmobile]

Glad you got it unplugged,
while that could have caused the previous owner to overheat it and blow the head gasket; you should look for some more signs of that.

That little stream heading into the resevoir can help alot with that.
Watch it with the cap off.
After all the air has been purged, which might take some driving, it should be a steady stream, any spurts of air can indicate a blown head gasket.

The most common way to test for a leak from cylinder to water jacket in these old diesels is to start it up cold with the resevoir cap on, run it for 30 seconds to a minute.
then remove the cap.
There shouldn't be pressure built up in that short of time,.. with a good head gasket.

I'm not going to say there are no dumb questions, but I haven't heard one in this post, ha.

[audi90sportQ]

Haha thanks for the responses, I just am itchin' to get this thing reliably on the road..because I did drive it to campus the other day, but on the way home it blew off that little line because I forgot to tighten it down...woops!

Ya ill have to check wit the coolant pressure tomorrow!

Ive read up on the timing on these motors and its not too difficult...im having more problems getting the C shaped clamps off the down pipe....time for muffler clamp.

[hamradio]

I always just knocked them off with a prybar, and put them on with an exhaust clamp, as outlined here:

http://www.4crawler.com/Diesel/CheapTricks/index.shtml#ExhaustClampTool

[Digital K]

Hate those clamps.

[audi90sportQ]

Ill get them off somehow, still trying to source a pump gauge if need be?

[fatmobile]

Stick a screwdriver in the clamp holes and turn the clamp till it pops off. Glad you know about the muffler clamp for putting them back on.

You don't need no stinking pump gauge..
If it's running it's time for a hillbilly tune.
White paint the junction between the most obvious injection pump bolt and the bracket, scribe a line and move the pump the width of a pencil line in either direction. Test drive.
Rinse aaaaand repeat.

[audi90sportQ]

^^^ Haha love it! So I am right about not having to loosen up to I.P and knocking it out of time?

[sprstu]

Running and running well are two very different things. Yes, you can time it by ear and feel if you know what you're looking for. but for someone who has never done this or really driven an old diesel how are you going to know what is better?

If its running when you take the belt off and don't move the pump the odds of it running again are good but not 100%. Just make damn sure everything is at TDC or your next 100 posts will be "why can't I get this stupid fucking diesel to run!!!!111"

[audi90sportQ]

HAHA ive seen hundreds of those threads! Person goes to do a headgasket, skip 4 pages and he is chasing down why it wont start. Comes down to pump bleeding, and pump timing.

I have owned a 1.6td mk1 jetta a year ago, but never ripped it apart really, but I know how they are supposed to feel when they run. and once my truck gets a couple minutes of heat in er, she runs perfect. my TD was the same way, had to idle for a bit with the cold start before she would smooth out.

[sprstu]

Awesome. I'm glad you're getting back into a Dieeel :)

[fatmobile]

^^^ Haha love it! So I am right about not having to loosen up to I.P and knocking it out of time?
Whaaaat?
Make a mark before you move it.
Even turning the pump while it's running will only get you close,
when turning the pump the width of a pencil ine will change things.

It'll move that much while you are reaching for the wrench, ha.

After you are done hillbilly tuning it; loosen the injector lines at the back of the pump and tighten them back up,
that twisting strain isn't good for them.

[audi90sportQ]

What I'm tryin to sayyyyyy issss!!! Haha, but seriously. Why do you even have to loosen the pump from the bracket?? Cant you just keep it bolted tight so there is no possibilities of it getting knocked outta time while doing the head?!

[Casper]

How much more time do you need?

[sprstu]

I think the concern is once you take the tension off the belt the wheel is prone to move tiny amounts, even when its locked, and its in those amounts that you lose the perfection in the timing. Especially on pumps that are 30 years old, there is a lot of "play" internally. You will probably be fine, and worst case if it doesn't start you know how to check it.

[Rhetoric]

Don't need a gauge? I saw Mr. Fatmobile arguing about this on the Vortex. To each their own I suppose.

They made a gauge for a reason: precise timing.

Every engine/pump is different and will require tuning to get it into the sweet spot. Why not use the gauge to help in documenting this? Sure, you can use some paint on the bracket, but what happens when that paint fades/chips away? It's easy to do tuning, then check your timing with a gauge as a method of verification. I have never once regretted buying my dial indicator/gauge for pump timing.

[fatmobile]

Wasn't really an arguement.
I addressed the lame points she made,.. and she ignored mine then changed the subject to we agree to disagree, who cares if we disagree, address the topic.
Are you aware that the fuel, injector breaking pressure and the internal pressure regulator determine where the pump should ride?
I think she was embarrassed to answer no so she ignored the question.

I don't understand how you think it gets you precise timing,.. unless you mean you know precisely where it's timed. Because right after that you mention every engine needs tuned to the sweet spot and the gauge just documents it.
It has little to do with getting you to the best place to run,. that place is sometimes out of spec to the advanced side especially on TDs.

I agree it will help document after you find the sweet spot. A local guy has been experimenting with chemicals that can be added to the fuel to improve efficiency. I let him put some in my tank. Quieter, shakes more at idle, EGTs jump too high when I mash it which can mean retarded timing. He said it slows down the burn rate so I might have to advance the timing. Advancing the timing the width of a pencil line isn't accurate enough so even though that's how much I will move it at a time the dial gauge will be used to document the change. Not to make it run better.
He also put a new lubricant additive in my oil (not teflon, not moly), kinda hushhush right now but it seems to run accel smoother as it bonds to the metal.
When the paint fades/chips you sploosh some more on and scribe the line again before it gets moved.