TDI Quattro Avant Swap Talk

[Die Frau]

Does anyone have a good site that has this information, what specific codes came with each chassis and combos? Europe and other markets get all sorts of fun variations that we don't - it would be nice to see what engines fit with which transmissions.

Specifically - What is the transmission code for the 6sp MT B6 Audi A4 Quattro and what is the engine code for the B5.5 Passat TDI?

I am scheming something, but as usual I cannot seem to find good hard information in the sea of crap out there. Can't see the forrest for the trees. I'd like to investigate more into swapping the Passat 2.0L TDI into the B6 1.8T Quattro... Seems like it *should* work since they are both longitudinal. Gearing would need to be addressed...

/halfcooked pipedream.

[JFettig]

The easiest way is to use ETKA, but vagcat.com works pretty well

B5.5 TDI is a BHW - it has one fatal flaws(balance shaft module) that is costly to fix up. Import an AWX from europe if you want a better engine. Scott_Dewitt from tdiclub - owner of advanced automation can get all of this for you but his costs are higher, Ryan Parkin(RyanP) from tdiclub can also get this stuff at a little better price. I am bringing in an ASZ PD130 from europe pretty soon through Ryan Parkin(RyanP) for a different swap project.

The biggest problem you'll have is making electronics play nice. Similar swaps have been done. You might need the cluster and some parts of a body harness to get it to work well.

You will want to take EDC15 vs EDC16 ecu and electronics into consideration and can bus - see what the B6 A4 has so it can communicate nicely.


I do know of a couple BHW motors around the country if you really want to spend the money. People ask way too much for these. I am bringing over the ASZ for about half of what people want for a BHW. If you want specifics on differences, I can share that.

If you want something real easy, start with a B5 S4. The 01E setup will give you close enough gearing in my opinion - the 6th gear has roughly the same ratio as my 5th gear in my B5 Passat TDI.

[Die Frau]

Wow, thanks for the info! I am trying to gather information and knowledge at this point, since I don't know much about TDI's. This would maybe be a project for next winter... we'll see. There is just so much bable out there... I have read through some of the swap threads, but there is so much garbage it is hard to find good, usable info.

In my morning of research here is what I have found so far:

Info on the possible players:

Audi A4 Avant (B6)
Production: 2001.5 - 2005
5sp Manual Quattro Transmission 2001.5 - 2004.5 (Codes FPT, FNU, FTZ & GBT)
3.778 - 2.176 - 1.429 - 1.091 - 0.889 FD: 3.89:1

6sp Manual Quattro Transmission 2004.5 - 2005 & Ultrasport (Code GJW)
3.667 - 2.053 - 1.423 - 1.065 - 0.853 - 0.730 FD: 3.89:1

Donor Car
VW Passat (B5, B5.5)
Engine Code : BHW - 2.0L TDI PD

Trans Code : GMR - 01V 5sp Tiptronic
(Speculated Ratios ??? 3.665 - 1.999 - 1.407 - 1.000 - 0.742 FD:???)

I'm not yet keen on the international shipping, even though that might be what it comes to. At the moment I would like to see if I can buy a wrecked 2003-2005 Passat, strip out everything needed to make it play nice (LOL) then sell off the rest of it to recoup some of the costs. But finding the right ratios, and gears for the Final Drive and 5th (or 6th) gear is going to be the biggest tackle I think.

I wonder if some of the internal gears can be pulled from the Passat transmission and installed into the Audi case.

I think I might also need to investigate the diffs too...

Here are some misc. links I have found that had bits and pieces of info:

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/b5/2004-2005-vw-passat-TDI-FAQ-DIY.htm (http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/b5/2004-2005-vw-passat-TDI-FAQ-DIY.htm)

http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/Volkswagen/audi_enginescode.html (http://www.autoshoppingcenter.com/Volkswagen/audi_enginescode.html)

http://www.automotix.net/usedtransmissions/audi-a4-inventory.html (http://www.automotix.net/usedtransmissions/audi-a4-inventory.html)

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/volkswagen/technical-training/vw-the-01v-automatic-trans-ssp.html




Weeeeeeeee

[BimmerTim]

any of the 4 or 5 cylinder transmissions will bolt up. if you got a 5 or 6 speed, they bolt up.

you could use an 016, an 01A, or a 01E(5 or 6 speed)

the gear positioning form the FWD longitudinal motors and the AWD trans should be swappable. I'd have to do more searching to know for sure.

Like I said yesterday, Peter, this should be pretty easy and straight forward.

[Die Frau]

Well, Tim, if you have confidence - I have confidence.

I have to believe that in the whole wide world of sports, this is possible.

I don't know enough about the transmission designs to quite understand how a FWD transmissions gear could work in an AWD case, but if you have thoughts or links to material that suggest this, I would love to see it.

Are the gears and shafts that similar, and you would just use the same diff inside the case? Or would you just swap the 5th gear from one of the transmissions you mentioned?

I saw that the 01V that comes on the B5.5 is a shared transmission with BMW, Porsche and some others - I wonder if there are some gear swaps possible outside of the VAG family?

I don't really care if it is a 5sp or 6sp, as long as it is TALL.

You could also use a plus sized wheel/tire combo to bring the total drive ratio closer to fuel economic possibility...

[BimmerTim]

the gears are separate from the diff on these trans. the passat, longitudinal trans is nearly identical to the awd trans, sans center diff and rear output shaft.

remember, Pete. They make this car. Just not in 'merica.

[Die Frau]

Right, which is why I have faith, albeit maybe misplaced.

So - how different do you think the internals of the Passat AUTOMATIC FWD transmission are? Could you pull off all the Automatic crap and install the gears and/or shafts into the MANUAL Quattro case?

[BimmerTim]

You could probably just get a 5th gear set from europe, or some crap. I doubt the AT stuff would swap around, but I'm not sure of that.

[sprstu]

It might be any easier swap, but the Passat BHW isnt a very good TDI. As far as the newer models are concerned its not the one Id choose. All B5.5 Passat TDIs in the US were Automatic Tiptronic.

[flippinvw]

This has kinda been a dream car of mine for a while now. That said, I've always been able to talk myself out of doing all the research required to do the swap since the milage with the 1.8T isn't that bad. Also, gas prices are down and diesel is up (which I'm now noticing now that I'm driving a TDI). The benefit cost-wise may not be as good as you think if you're doing this for a cost-effective winter car. If you can manage nearly 30mpg in a standard A4 1.8T or 2.0T, you might as well stick with that. Also keep in mind that diesels don't warm up quickly and they are much more noisey when cold.

I'm thinking diesel for summer and a gas car with excellent heat (and so-so mpg) for winter next year. I don't put on nearly as many miles over the really cold months anyways. If only V8 S4 prices would come down a little bit more..

[JFettig]

First off, mechanically, its a simple swap. getting the electronics to work - that is another story. Hopefully yet this winter I'll be doing something similar, except I'm not worried about getting my dash to work - all that is either mechanical or pick ups off the trans, etc. Getting the cluster from the B6 to work with the TDI ECU will be another story.

If you bring in enough components from Europe, just swap all of it over and be done, simple - kind of like what Tim is thinking. Scott Dewitt from Advanced Automotion sometimes brings over full cars for swaps.

I do know of a wrecked B5.5 TDI if you want - he wants like 4k for it or somewhere around that. I also know of another motor for 4k.

Here is the deal with the BHW, it is a very good motor but: They have a chain driven balance shaft that WILL break, the oil pump is part of it, with no oil, there goes the rest of the motor. They make a gear driven retrofit that you can swap over to a gear driven balance shaft, $1200 in parts later. Otherwise you can actually convert it to the older chain driven oil pump from an ALH, or BRM(better - higher pressure) - this takes a little more work. Another thing you will run into is that the crank on the flywheel side is slightly different, but it should still work. I believe the snub that sticks out is shorter. Another downside to PD motors in general - they are very picky on the oil, cams get eaten easily(I have one from an 04 I had in my garage), its about 800 bucks in parts to change a cam.

Plus sides of the BHW - 18.5:1 compression - great for high boost(35psi no problem). The bottom end is very strong. 2L instead of 1.9L(minor). The pistons are good for machining out the bowls for reducing the compression even more(higher power builds). working your way up to 400ft-lbs - you'll want upgraded rods.

I don't know anything about switching gears from FWD to Quattro trans. I kind of doubt it but check the part numbers. I'd guess that the pinion shaft is different between the two.

I highly doubt that auto to manual gear swaps will ever happen.

If you ever want to take a look or even drive my B5 TDI, you're more than welcome to. It will give you a taste of what a torque monster that BHW could be, Mine is not a BHW and it is a 5 speed. PM me if you want contact info for the guys who have the crashed B5.5 and the BHW motor. Importing a motor through the right channels will be cheaper. A proper 5 speed trans imported is around $1000, 6 speed is up to $2500. This is why I recommend going with a B5 S4 for your swap.
AWX, ASZ, ARL motors are all EDC15 but have CAN bus, BHW, BEW, BRM are EDC16 I believe and have CAN bus. You might be able to get an early ARL(PD150) without CAN bus but its is for a transverse car - can be converted with some stuff.

I say put a V10 TDI into a B6 S4 and call it a day.

[isonic]

I say put a V10 TDI into a B6 S4 and call it a day.
I agree!

[JPB]

or go back in time and buy this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3984Q2em1438Q2el2649QQ itemZ230671670921QQsspagenameZSTRKQ3aMEWAXQ3aIT

[Die Frau]

Here is the deal with the BHW, it is a very good motor but: They have a chain driven balance shaft that WILL break, the oil pump is part of it, with no oil, there goes the rest of the motor. They make a gear driven retrofit that you can swap over to a gear driven balance shaft, $1200 in parts later. Otherwise you can actually convert it to the older chain driven oil pump from an ALH, or BRM(better - higher pressure) - this takes a little more work. Another thing you will run into is that the crank on the flywheel side is slightly different, but it should still work. I believe the snub that sticks out is shorter. Another downside to PD motors in general - they are very picky on the oil, cams get eaten easily(I have one from an 04 I had in my garage), its about 800 bucks in parts to change a cam.


I say put a V10 TDI into a B6 S4 and call it a day.

It sounds like there are a lot of downsides to the BHW. I know that they are a bit more powerful than the 1.9, but that comes at the price of some economy.

If I were to do this, I would be interested in making more power than stock, but it wouldn't be anything crazy at all - certainly not seeking enough power that the .1 displacement would be that big of a deal. I am more interested in reliability and economy, than a stump puller. Ideally I would source the engine, and refurbish it, then put in a chip and some other small stuff like injectors and call it a day.

So would a 1.9 block from a MK3, MK4 or B5 be a better solution? Are they a simpler, more reliable motor? Non P.D.? I know they would be way easier to find. Would that block also mount transversely (the B5 already is...?) Then you just need to source the mounts and intake/exhaust? I see these motors going into the 250-300 thousand mile range all the time.

Also, given their age, they should be a bit easier to work with when it comes to electronics, no?

The V-10 Toureg motor into a S4... uh... yes please. :D Would that even fit? Man that would be AWESOME!

And Brent, from a cost perspective - I know that it would be YEARS before it pays itself off in the fuel economy, over the 1.8T.

I think I'm just done with the 1.8T. They are so high strung that they constantly need something. I have put thousands of dollars into my motor and it still needs more. And there is no guarantee that it won't need something else in the next 6 months. I really liked this motor for a long time, and thought it was the perfect motor... but it has worn me out. If I could find a way to make this swap possible, and reliable - if I put enough effort into refurbing/rebuilding the motor before the swap into the right car - I might get 10-15 years of good service out of it. Maybe more. Keep in mind, I have had 2 of my 3 cars for 10 years, so I tend to keep 'em around. A AWD/4WD Wagon would be the perfect car for me/my family... I just need to find one mated with an engine that can go the distance and gets decent mileage too.

And I also need to consider some of the other AWD wagons too... but for now I'd like to inform myself on this option. I really appreciate all the input here guys! Even if this does not pan out, it is good to keep the discussion around this place going in these lean months!

[JFettig]

I have no idea if the V10 would fit - I'm sure you could make it fit ;)

Older motors: only 2 B5's in North America came over with TDI's, I just happen to be lucky enough to come across one. Yes it is longitudinal. AHH engine code.

The A3/B4 motor will fit up with some of the older 1.8T components. ALH from the A4 will take a few of the newer 1.8T parts I think - would need to check.
These motors would be easier, especially if you get one from 99.5 and prior(including early ALH). I have some wiring diagrams. These motors are louder and more difficult to get over 180hp out of them.

Quattro TDI will yield upper 30s for mileage, maybe low 40s.

I still think an early B5S4 with a 99.5 ALH(or AHU) swapped into it would be the easiest swap you could do. The cluster might not work though.

Another thing, PD injector nozzle swaps are $$$.

[Die Frau]

Wait... there are only two B5 TDI's in the U.S.?

180HP? They came with 90, right? Just a chip puts them at ~130hp/300tq right? That is really just fine for me. Don't care how loud they are. The diesel clap is just fine by me.

[JFettig]

yes, of the B5.5, there were something like 15,000.

Mine came with 90hp, I'm at 180whp/300-310ft-lbs running 24.5psi on a bigger turbo, cam, and injectors. Just a chip will get to 125-130hp/230-270ft-lbs with injectors upgraded.

Come take a spin in mine, you'll get the full diesel clap B5 experience.

[Die Frau]

Well, my schedule is crazy until the end of January... but it sounds like you have more knowledge on this than anyone else I can think of, and I should come pick your brain and take you up on the offer for a drive. I'll have to set something up with you in Feb.

High 30's - Low 40's MPG would be a nice place to be, and I would be happy at 130hp/250tq. I could see wanting more, but for the sake of reliability I think I would play if safe. This sounds like the ideal power and economy for a family cruiser.

What are the engine codes for the 1.9 TDI's from the Mk3, Mk4 and B4? And are they similar in dimension and hardware/mount as the diesel that is in your B5?

I guess what I am getting at, aside from the transmission - just mounting the engine in the bay, would it be a simple as rotating the engine and getting the B5 or B5.5 TDI mounts from Europe? Or would the 1.8T mounts bolt up to the TDI block?

[JFettig]

No problem, anytime you want. I've only been researching and messing with this stuff for just over a year but I have no life ;)

just remember, I'm putting out 180hp when you drive my car, 130hp is disappointing in my opinion ;)

mk3 = AHU, B4=1z, MK4(99.5-2003)=ALH, MK4(04-06)=BEW
My B5 is an AHH, the block and head are the same as the AHU/1z, injection pump is the same as the ALH Automatic, brackets are different than both.
AHU/1z use wastegate turbos, ALH uses VNT turbos. VNT turbos are much more friendly to get more power out of and spool quick. AHU/1z can be retrofitted to VNT with a proper tune but you must use B5.5 or AFN exhaust manifolds(AFN=AHU with VNT and 110hp stock)
The turbo setup from a transverse setup will have to change from stock if using the standard motor mount brackets.

I have heard people talk about bolting up 1.8T mounts and pans but never seen it confirmed. You could always fab up some steel mounts. If you decide to do an AHU, I can get you the part numbers off of lots of my parts. I do believe that the early 1.8T block is almost the same as the AHU/1z block, same style oil pump.

dig through TDIClub conversions threads. There are a few B5 swaps and one guy who has a B6 manual injection pump ALH swap(think 1.6l IDI DBC injection pump)

[Die Frau]

Great info! Thank you so much. This gives me a lot more to think about and consider.

I'm now starting to see why you would think the AHU or ALH might be the easiest route.

Here is the info I have about the other Quattro boxes:

A4 3.0 Quattro (B6) 3.500 1.889 1.320 1.034 0.857 0.730
Final Drive: 4.11:1
Gear Box Codes: FYF, GBE, GJV

S4 2.7(B5) 3.50 1.889 1.231 .967 0.806 0.684
Final Drive: 4.11:1

S4 4.2(B6) 3.667 2.05 1.462 1.133 0.919 0.778
Final Drive: 3.89:1

It looks to me like the B6 A4 trans is very close to the B5 S4 drive ratios... is there any reason why you would think the S4 would be a better fit than the 3.0?

Do you find that getting that extra 50hp (130 up to 180) has sacrificed reliability? Does that push the motor too close to the edge that you are constantly fussing with it, or was it 'set it and forget it'? Ideally, once this was dialed in, I would love to get to a point where I don't have to always worry about it. Just do the maint. and put gas... er diesel in it.

[Champ]

This has kinda been a dream car of mine for a while now. That said, I've always been able to talk myself out of doing all the research required to do the swap since the milage with the 1.8T isn't that bad. Also, gas prices are down and diesel is up (which I'm now noticing now that I'm driving a TDI). The benefit cost-wise may not be as good as you think if you're doing this for a cost-effective winter car. If you can manage nearly 30mpg in a standard A4 1.8T or 2.0T, you might as well stick with that. Also keep in mind that diesels don't warm up quickly and they are much more noisey when cold.
I was going to say - with the fuel prices what they are right now, it's more expensive to drive our TDI than the gasoline counterpart. Not by much, but something to think about. Of course in 2 years maybe the prices will be flipped, or maybe diesel will be twice the price of gas? Never know!

[Die Frau]

Like I said, while fuel price is a concern of mine, overall fuel milage and reliabilty and longevity are more my motivation right now.

I like the idea of BioDiesel. And if I ever decide to move to Montana - I can go off-grid and make my own Griesel. LOL

Mostly - its winter. I'm bored and trying to figure out what I want to do for a project. :D

[Champ]

If you get this going, then maybe you could help me swap in a Duramax into my Envoy?

[JFettig]

S4 vs 3.0 ratios ~150rpm at 55mph and 200rpm at 80mph. 3000rpm at 80mph seems like a lot to me already.

I'm still rolling cheaper than my old V6 passat, about 1/2 the cost per mile.

If I backed it off about 10-15hp, I couldn't be fussing with it at all, but who am I kidding, I love squeezing every last bit out of it and making it better. With my current setup, and where I have been for a while, I wouldn't have to touch it, well if I took out the aggressive spool(next tune is coming will likely fix the boost spike). I am at a point that I won't increase the torque because I've been warned about shelling out my trans where I am at(300ft-lbs+ at 2000rpm). I'm working toward the perfect tune for my car.

If you went with the same setup I had minus the cam and aggressive fueling, you'd be at a happy, clean, smoke free 150whp.

Biodiesel - do a LOT of reading on this before you do it. regular pump bio is probably ok for older motors but don't mess with grease or WVO unless you want to constantly be "fussing" with it.

Jon

[Die Frau]

I was kidding about the WVO... I don't have time for that.

How do you figure the RPM for a particular speed with the gear ratios? I am sure it is simple math, but I don't know it.

[JFettig]

I wrote an excel spreadsheet but try this:
http://www.fatboyraceworks.com/gears/

[sprstu]

Driving a TDI with a chip and injectors will give you more power with the same stock reliability. The only concerns with adding power through chip and injectors is with a higher mileage turbo, but thats the case with any car. the higher boost ability can shorten the life of your turbo, but my Golf has a stock VNT-15 with 215xxx miles and Ive been running at +20psi (stock is 15-17) for a while with no issues to date. I know that I will hurt my turbo at this rate, but thats just because I dont have a boost controller to keep my peaks down around 20psi. With that in place I would have 0 concern.
My Mk3 TDI no has 250xxx miles on its stock turbo, it got injectors and a chip at 190xxx.

One of the best parts of the TDI truly is its no-fuss reliability. As long as its timed perfectly and has the correct tune and injector combo it identical to a stock car other than the loud pedal. Most of the cars that have chip and injectors get better or the same mileage as a stock car, but like all cars it depends on how much self control you have with your foot.

[catriple]

I want to do this too! B6 avant diesel = rad.

[Champ]

I was going to say - with the fuel prices what they are right now, it's more expensive to drive our TDI than the gasoline counterpart. Not by much, but something to think about. Of course in 2 years maybe the prices will be flipped, or maybe diesel will be twice the price of gas? Never know!
Now I say this, and today we paid only $3.66 for diesel, which is down from $4.24 only 2 weeks ago.

Will never understand.

[JFettig]

wow, that cheap? sweet! I haven't filled my tank in over 2 weeks.

My old Passat 2.8V6 got ~22mpg on average. My Passat TDI gets 42-45mpg on average(and I beat the piss out of it). Compare the prices, even at a buck higher, its still cheaper.

[Die Frau]

Driving a TDI with a chip and injectors will give you more power with the same stock reliability. The only concerns with adding power through chip and injectors is with a higher mileage turbo, but thats the case with any car. the higher boost ability can shorten the life of your turbo, but my Golf has a stock VNT-15 with 215xxx miles and Ive been running at +20psi (stock is 15-17) for a while with no issues to date. I know that I will hurt my turbo at this rate, but thats just because I dont have a boost controller to keep my peaks down around 20psi. With that in place I would have 0 concern.
My Mk3 TDI no has 250xxx miles on its stock turbo, it got injectors and a chip at 190xxx.

One of the best parts of the TDI truly is its no-fuss reliability. As long as its timed perfectly and has the correct tune and injector combo it identical to a stock car other than the loud pedal. Most of the cars that have chip and injectors get better or the same mileage as a stock car, but like all cars it depends on how much self control you have with your foot.


I like the sound of this. All of it.

Well, IF this happens - the TDI would get a FULL refresh before the install. Probably a head service, re-ring, new bearings and either a new turbo or turbo re-build. So It would be as close as you could get to a 0 mile motor. If I could get 200,000 realativly trouble free miles out of it, I would be thrilled.

I don't have any family closer than 500 miles, so there is usually a 3,000 mile trip planned every year. My parents are in Rhode Island and my brother is in Seattle. The idea of getting a family of three (plus dog) across country and back for ~$300.00 is very appealing. And being far from home, the realiabilty is HUGE.

(To be fair though - no other car I have driven as far has even let me down.)

[KeithStone]

Now I say this, and today we paid only $3.66 for diesel, which is down from $4.24 only 2 weeks ago.

Will never understand.

Maybe I will start driving my TDI again if thats the case. I stopped, partially on the principle of not paying $1.00/gallon more than gas at the pump.

[JFettig]

Check this thread out!
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=339150

Looks like this guy got a half cut from europe.

[sprstu]

I was thinking about doing the same swap, take a V6 4Motion Passat Wagon and an engine/trans from Europe. May be easier than the A6, not as nice in the end though.