Garage heater tuning needed [Archive]

dontknownuttin

10-21-2009, 08:20 AM

So I have my garage heater all hooked up. The problem now is the pilot will not light. Well, it will light, but it will not stay lit. It seems there is too much gas pressure. The pilot light is like a blow torch, seriously. I am guessing there is some type of saftey that will not allow it to light if there is too much pressure. The temp senor thing that senses for the pilot is in a good position, so I don't think it is that. And I held the pilot on for a solid 5 min, but it would not stay lit.

Anyone skilled in this sort of thing? I can take detailed pics of the equipment if it helps at all.

I really want to get this thing going before winter sets in.

JTapper

10-21-2009, 09:44 AM

dontknownuttin

10-21-2009, 09:45 AM

The valve has a pilot position where it should puch down. Once it's lit you'll have to keep holding it down for up to 30 seconds or so. Let up and it should remain lit. If you hold it for over a minute and it still does not stay lit you have other issues. More likely a bad regulator on the gas valve body of the furnace.

I have already made it past the part of getting it lit while holding down the button. But when I do that, it is not like a pilot light, it is like a blow torch. So now I am trying to narrow down what the other issues may be.

JTapper

10-21-2009, 10:22 AM

Thats how it should be. Like a little blow torch, and then go down once you let the button up. How long are you keeping it held down? It sounds like once you let up on the button it goes out, is that correct?

dontknownuttin

10-21-2009, 10:23 AM

We tried keeping it on between 30 seconds and up to 5 minutes almost. It was tried many times in a row with various amounts of time between tries.

JTapper

10-21-2009, 10:27 AM

Now you've got me thinking hard about it. It could be the regulator, but you would have other problems too. Assuming it's older, have you cleaned it all out? Run a vacuum through there and clean up around the pilot, make sure something didn't get in there causing the gas flow to not sustain a flame after it's primed.

JTapper

10-21-2009, 10:28 AM

dontknownuttin

10-21-2009, 10:29 AM

I did not clean it, but it doesn't look dirty. It also seems to have plenty of flow, if not too much almost. Though I suppose it could be that it is actually set too low and not too high like I am thinking.

dontknownuttin

10-21-2009, 10:31 AM

Stupid question, but on some you have to turn the valve to on as you're holding it down, as you doing that? Just covering all the bases.

A guy can hand build an R32 wagon is his garage but he can't light a furnace...sheesh!

The valve can only be in one position when the pilot is able to be lit and the lighting button pushed.

There are a lot of things I can do, and a lot of things I don't know how to do yet. I have never had to mess with a furnace before, and am a little reluctant to just mess around since if I screw it up I could get a gas leak and make everything go boom.

FJ540

10-21-2009, 01:09 PM

If you want, I can come take a look at it this afternoon. I just need to be at school at 4ish.

dontknownuttin

10-21-2009, 01:38 PM

If you want, I can come take a look at it this afternoon. I just need to be at school at 4ish.

sure. The garage door is open and I should be there in about an hour or so. Call me before you leave though if you go.

helmut

10-21-2009, 04:04 PM

Furnace? Clean the flame sensor with some steel wool.

boardrider247

10-21-2009, 04:37 PM

Give me a call when you get home from work on friday and I'll swing over to take a look.

dontknownuttin

10-21-2009, 04:54 PM

Give me a call when you get home from work on friday and I'll swing over to take a look.

Will do

dontknownuttin

10-21-2009, 05:16 PM

I kind of wonder if the thermostat is hooked up right. It will kick the fan on. Here is the layout... There are 6 screws. 3 over 3 as follows:

T2 F G
T1 C V

G is ground, I know that
T2 and F are connected
C and V are connected

The thermostat is going to T1 and T2. It is only those two wires.

The thermostat has RH and W. RH goes to T1 and W goes to T2.

So, yeah. All of that means nothing to me.

JTapper

10-21-2009, 05:59 PM

That should have no effect on your pilot not staying lit though.

It does sound to be hooked up correctly. RH is the feed (power) from the transformer (on the furnace), and W is the output from the thermostat to control the heat. G controls the fan, and is not needed unless you want to run the fan only without the heat, so you can leave it as is.

dontknownuttin

10-21-2009, 07:25 PM

G controls the fan? It seems to go straight to the metal housing, so I had assumed it was ground. The fan will come on if I turn the t-stat on, even though the actual flame doesn't light. It turns off again if I turn the t-stat off. So I am guessing it is wired right for the most part. But I honestly have no clue and no real desire to learn. It is like plumbing to me, I just don't care in any way shape or form.

JTapper

10-21-2009, 07:37 PM

Take a look right above the pilot light and see if you don't have a small pilot sensor. It'll look like a solid steel pin about 1/2-3/4" long. Probably hooked to a wire that comes off the pilot assembly and onto the board. If it's dirty try cleaning it with some emery cloth carefully, and make sure the wire leads back to somewhere on the board.

dontknownuttin

10-21-2009, 08:45 PM

There is a sensor. It is in perfect contact with the flame. I watched it get red hot at most depending on how I held the button. But it was always directly on it. I have not cleaned it though.

JTapper

10-21-2009, 09:22 PM

Is it hooked up? ;)

If so, check the connection.

With the power to the furnace off :)

dontknownuttin

10-21-2009, 09:24 PM

Is it hooked up? ;)

If so, check the connection.

With the power to the furnace off :)

Yes. Tried it with power on and off actually. There is gas, the pilot goes, it just doesn't stay on.

JTapper

10-21-2009, 09:33 PM

Whats the make/model of the furnace?

carlrado

10-22-2009, 05:56 PM

this sounds like an overpressure situation to me, and immediately i was thinking bad regulator. if you want to try to rule this out, try using your shutoff valve (should be atleast one 1/4 turn ball valve before the reg. for servicing) as a throttling valve. crack it at half open and go through the process again. it should still light your pilot just fine with the decreased gas pressure even with a good reg. and if it all goes through and lights your main burner... you know what to do.

FJ540

10-22-2009, 07:36 PM

Carl, it is an overpressure issue. When I was out there yesterday afternoon I noticed the heater calls for 6" w.c. and the gas meter states 2psi.

We played with the ball valve, but if it was possible to restrict the flow to emulate the needed pressure, you'd still run out of fuel when you tried to light the burner.

carlrado

10-23-2009, 10:04 AM

maybe there isn't enough oxygen getting to it. after all, the three elements to fire are fuel, heat and oxygen. there could be enough residual oxygen in the line to light your pilot for a little bit but once the main burner tries to kick on gets snuffed out. check for a combustion make up air port to the burner. sometimes this is on the burner head and sometimes it is just an open atmosphere inside the heater core (watertube heaters). if it was meant to be on the head in your application, not including it might be your case.

dontknownuttin

10-23-2009, 10:05 AM

I don't think so. The electrical and burner are both off. The dial is set to pilot only. So it could only be pilot, not main burner. I can keep the pilot on as long as needed so long as I hold the button down.

FJ540

10-23-2009, 12:38 PM

John was right when he said the pilot is way bigger than it should be. It's like a bunsen burner opened up, not like a bic lighter (like my pilots always have been).

I'm going to email my buddy at the city and see what he thinks the best approach is.

dontknownuttin

10-23-2009, 01:57 PM

It could be though that the pilot is supposed to be like that in the "light" mode and then scales back once the button is release?

dontknownuttin

10-23-2009, 08:01 PM

Replaced the thermocouple, did not help.

Heater is a Modine, Model is PA75AB

boardrider247

10-24-2009, 03:49 PM

If the thermocouple did nothing, my next suggestion would be to add the correct regulator.

This should be the one you need.
http://www.pexsupply.com/Maxitrol-325-3-1-2-1-2-Lever-Acting-Gas-Regulator-10694000-p

It is possible that the gas valve is sensing too much pressure and will not let the pilot stay lit when you let off of the manual override.

FJ540

10-26-2009, 08:08 PM

My buddy at the city said a regulator was the only solution as well.

JTapper

10-26-2009, 08:17 PM

My buddy at the city said a regulator was the only solution as well.

This:
http://www.soprupradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/warren-g.jpg

FJ540

10-26-2009, 08:30 PM

He might work, since he could "suck" the extra pressure off.

Sadly, I paid 10 bucks for that cd.

dontknownuttin

10-29-2009, 02:02 PM

So the too much pressure theory was right. I decided to just call in an actual heater guy (same place that did my home heater). It is running at 2psi and it should be at .5psi. There is also supposed to be a T junction in there for some reason. Lastly, I guess I bought the wrong adapters. I got ones for water and though the fit and work, there is a risk of them cracking. So it is going to cost me a few $ to get it set right, but it will be done properly and all will be well in the world. :happydance:

dontknownuttin

10-29-2009, 02:56 PM

WOOHOO! I now have a heated garage!

BimmerTim

10-29-2009, 03:01 PM

Sweet deal.

FJ540

10-29-2009, 04:00 PM

Glad you got it sorted.

The T in the connection is a sediment trap. It's basically a precaution to prevent any dirt from making it into the shutoff valve and causing a leak.

Was it the compression fittings he didn't like?

Champ

10-29-2009, 05:08 PM

Sometimes it's just easier to pay a dude to do it for ya

JTapper

10-29-2009, 05:17 PM

Was it the compression fittings he didn't like?

Ouch! Never never never never never use compression for gas. Must be flare.

Glad you got it all sorted out Jon!

FJ540

10-29-2009, 05:27 PM

I didn't do it. ;)

I didn't run any flexible copper on my gas line. Inside the house, I connected with black iron, then went corrugated SS for the majority of the run, then back to BI in the ceiling of the shop. Since I had to run 3/4" for the volume needed, it would've been really expensive in copper. CSS wasn't too bad price wise, but I like the impact resistance of BI.

dontknownuttin

10-29-2009, 07:29 PM

The fittings were just the wrong material. I don't know. The replaced ones look identical. I think everything would have worked if I had the right PSI. Doesn't matter, I am now sitting in a nice warm garage, so I am happy!

JTapper

10-29-2009, 08:01 PM

They look nearly identical on the outside, but on the inside they are completely different. Flare requires special tools, if I would have come out I would have replaced everything compression with flare, since I wouldn't even put my worst enemies name on a gas line done with compression. Corrugated SS lines are nice. I used that to run some new lines when I remodeled my house. The line is reasonable, but the fittings are pretty expensive. I think I spent around $17 for each fitting to adapt it to BIP at the hookups.

FJ540

10-29-2009, 08:22 PM

I don't think mine were that bad, but I also only had one fitting on either end of the 100' run. It was 3 years ago, so they might have gone up since then.

boardrider247

10-30-2009, 04:31 PM

WOOHOO! I now have a heated garage!

Congrats. Sorry I couldn't be more help the other night. Like I said it's been a long time since I've done any residential work.

JTapper

10-30-2009, 05:05 PM

I don't think mine were that bad, but I also only had one fitting on either end of the 100' run. It was 3 years ago, so they might have gone up since then.

Yeah, this was about 4 years ago. I got them at Menards, which probably didn't help with the price. I had about a 60' run through the house. I tucked it up in an I-beam that runs across the basement. The previous owner had it run in 1/2" BIP below the joists and boxed it in when they did a half-assed job finishing the basement. I tore it all out and did it all over again the right way wiring and all. They had romex running into metal boxes with no strain-reliefs. I tore out the drywall and found a shitshow of bad wiring.

FJ540

10-30-2009, 06:16 PM

Our basement is a homebrew nightmare as well. Previous and only other owner finished the basement in black ash paneling. The problem: he doesn't know a damn thing about sizing circuits or how many amps a light bulb draws. There's a dimmer I don't want anyone using because it gets hot due to the string of 14 incandescent lights on it. The other problem, 3/4 of the house is on one 15A breaker - but he added 6 branch circuits... What they go to - your guess is as good as mine!

I've got a lot of work ahead of me if we end up staying here that long. I like my neighbors and close proximity to suppliers, but I could really use some more space.

JTapper

10-30-2009, 06:40 PM

You can get a heavy duty dimmer that MAY handle the load depending on bulb wattage.

FJ540

10-30-2009, 08:28 PM

Or I can rip out all his home-built fixtures that look like shit and do the whole build-out correctly. :)

To give you an idea -

In the bathroom, he notched 2/3 through the wall studs that support the 2 story wall on the stairwell, so that he didn't need to correctly remove the floor drain and install a proper trap for the shower surround. No, that would've been too much work. So instead, he relieved the studs so that the sheetrock (yes, I said sheetrock) he was applying tile to would fit over the lip of the preformed pan and mate to the remaining notched stud face. This means the stud had to be notched even further to allow for the 3/4" lip on the pan.

I ended up doubling all the studs to rebuild them in that wall. I was lucky that I didn't crack the sheetrock on the stairwell side in the process.

IMO: Anything Curt did needs un-doing.

His water heater install lacked a sediment trap, and proper shut-off valve, and inspection.

His sub panel was permitted, but never inspected. So I'm pretty sure all of his wiring was never inspected.

He's got loads crossed in multiple old wiring junction boxes. That's why most of the house is still on a couple breakers rather than the dedicated circuits he thought he was installing.

Every project I do involves de-curt-ification. We've even got an illegal gas line outside to a built-in grill that's not to code. He just buried the soft copper line and called it a day.

The really sad thing in all of this, is that our house was a custom built high end home when it was erected in `65 (build quality is fantastic). Then that jackass lived here and refused to pay a tradesman to do anything to keep it up. Our gutters have no slope. The list is endless.

dontknownuttin

10-30-2009, 09:09 PM

Congrats. Sorry I couldn't be more help the other night. Like I said it's been a long time since I've done any residential work.

I appreciate the time/effort just the same. :beer:

JTapper

10-30-2009, 09:15 PM

Jon, did you say before you had an older heater you were looking to get rid of?

dontknownuttin

10-30-2009, 09:23 PM

Yep, I have a propane 200K heater that hooks up to a normal "grill" style tank. I used it while making my entire wagon. It is very effective, but not nearly as nice as a real heater. It is very portable though. I bought it for about $120. I'd sell it for $40?

JTapper

10-30-2009, 09:25 PM

Ah, torpedo style I'm assuming? I've got one...I just don't like it. I have to be too careful about whats on the business end of it.

FJ540

10-31-2009, 01:32 AM

Jon, I might have a buyer for ya. I'll let you know Sunday.

dontknownuttin

10-31-2009, 07:32 AM

Ah, torpedo style I'm assuming? I've got one...I just don't like it. I have to be too careful about whats on the business end of it.

yes and no. It is a tube, but it is upright and vents out the sides all around. You still have to keep it away from stuff, but not as much as the other type. It is pretty much this heater (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xit/R-100672868/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053) but it looks a bit different. The function would be the same.